SquirrleyMojo:

Bet You Thought I'd Never Write Here

Sunday, May 22, 2005

What I Meant to Post

I know nothing about horses, but I will pretend to follow your "other" argument for just a moment; you said:
"Incidentally, intertextuality is not dialogic because the reference to
> the secondary text is being used to affirm the authorial viewpoint.
> Even when the authorial viewpoint is seeking to undermine something
> current--like, say, a feminist poem that references the experience of
> Sulpicia to emphasize the unchanging position of women in society--the
> references to Sulpicia's text ultimately support the contemporary
> author's main point. So there's no dialog going on in the
> poem--everything moves to one, unified meaning. The fact that the poem
> is posing a question to society about the position of women isn't
> really relevant either, because the poem itself only has one voice.
> Make sense? No? Crap. This has to make sense so I can distinguish
> between it and revisionist mythology, which is intertextual AND
> dialogic, and if I don't find a way to make this make sense I'm going
> to have to say Batstone is just plain wrong, and my thesis committee
> KNOWS Batstone. They aren't going to side with me over him. But if I
> can prove his argument applies to a specific type of intertextuality
> only, then I can present my idea as an extension of his work.
> Brilliant, isn't it? Except the part where it doesn't make sense,
> obviously."

I haven't read Batstone, but are you suggesting that her/his theories relate to a more dialogic approach to poetry than someone else who is arguing that intertextuality = a dialogic approach? [Which I agree, the equation cannot be that simple.] If so, I believe your argument can be made quite successfully--ironically, if you can use Batstone as support. Ha!
Regardless, (ie. if I'm an ass and I misread your whole idea) I find your statement about secondary texts which states, "ultimately support[ing] the contemporary
> author's main point. So there's no dialog going on in the
> poem--everything moves to one, unified meaning. The fact that the poem
> is posing a question to society about the position of women isn't
> really relevant either, because the poem itself only has one voice,"
facinating--to be sure. :-)
Since you are also studing response theory, how can you claim that even a poem that ultimately engages in only one voice (within the space of the poem, I assume?) is/becomes irrelevant when every poem is actually read in the context of "other" (outside) poetry? Even if the poem is a singular voice, it *adds* to the dialogue of various voices from times/spaces, as that dialogue is interpretted from the reference point of a given "reader"? Aiya. I need to diagram what I am trying to say . . . which is that no voice can participate outside of a dialogue? because it is not heard without sometype of interpretation (even if it is a silent interpretation)?

I'm just trying to argue.

Actually--your subject matter sounds facinating. More beers!
And considering my last post, I'm blogging this to redeem myself.

21 Comments:

At 11:38 AM, Blogger Tee said...

jeebuzz save me, i need some links or a wiki for that one... now, i'm gonna spend my sunday morning bagel energy interpreting this? ow. my mouse finger hurts already...

 
At 12:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

since you bring up wiki, what's the point/pleasure? i feel like i'm really missing out . . .

SQ

 
At 12:59 PM, Blogger Tee said...

ummm, the point: to fill (my) time, the pleasure? to learn something about what you were talking about, and therefore broaden my view (since i was completely ignorant of the terms used in the above) - perhaps the point/pleasure is only mine, and not necessary for either you nor your intended... ;)

= = = = =
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elegiac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulpicia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intertextuality
= = = = =

ahh, i enjoyed this one!:
My stupid birthday's here, and I'm supposed
to go away and leave Cerinthus here.
What's better than the city? On the farm,
it's cold and rustic -- no place for a girl.
Messalla, uncle, you're thinking of me,
but stop it: this is no time for a trip.
Take me away, I'll leave my heart and mind
In Rome: what good's free will? You make the rules.

and this:
I should be glad you think that you can cheat:
what a fool I'd be to fall into your arms.
Go: court your working girl as she spins her wool
instead of Sulpicia daughter of Servius.
My family are concerned I might lose out
to the affections of an unknown's bed.

 
At 1:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Game on, Mojo!

Ok, why am I calling a poem with one voice irrelevant to the discussion? Good question.

From Batstone:

"'In order to understand, it is immensely important for the person who understands to be located outside, the object of his or her creative understanding--in time, in space, in culture' [Bakhtin 1986b:7]: what Bakhtin describes here is true of any text, just as a dialogic dynamic is part of any utterance. What I am claiming is that this principle must be built into the construction of the poet's saying I, it must be part of the work's intention, if the I is not to pretend to monologic finalization [...]"

So I think what's being said here is that while all writing is dialogic in the sense that there's a reader reflecting on the poem, if the poem doesn't in some way acknowledge that the reader is participating, the poem isn't really dialogic. If I stand in the middle of the room and read a diary entry and you happen to overhear it, and have an opinion on me, does that mean we are actually having a conversation or our voices are engaging? I think the answer here is no--the poem has to acknowledge that the reader/listener is engaging. Does that make sense?

So my argument about monologic poems/readers being irrelevant is not quite right. But if a poem only has one voice, and if that voice doesn't acknowledge other voices, then the reader is irrelevant, because the poem is acting like it's sealed off from the world. The reader can engage with the poem, but the poem doesn't engage with the reader; the poem is just confirming a self-absorbed world-view.

I'll see if I can find a poem that I would argue is monologic despite how a reader might react to it. But you are right... something's not right about what I was trying to say before.

 
At 1:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sulpicia is fun--the only woman poet we have in Latin literature.

 
At 1:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

tee:
I only asked b/c I didn't know what Wiki is/was until you brought it up--so I was/am curious: how is it different than simple message board posting (I mean, I "get" the mechanics somewhat--ok, not really, but enough)? Why put energy into a post some Joe (no mo) can just delete?

SQ

 
At 1:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Avodado:

_Intention_?!?!

*Intention*??!

I could call checkmate at the mere mention of that word/ideology! Do not go down the dark path of, gulp, and double gulp, @intention@!


Further, you say:
"if the poem doesn't in some way acknowledge that the reader is participating, the poem isn't really dialogic."

Wouldn't the term "performing" be more precise? The poem doesn't "perform" dialogic, which seems to be completely different than saying the poem "is" not dialogic. [?]

As for your example, does it follow your argument? Perhaps we need a clearer understanding of "dialogic" itself?! Which is a very interesting matter indeed.
[as a side, I would ask if the reader is aware of another's presence? can presence, or an awareness of another's presence, as Plato may even suggest, act as dialogue/influence? can creation exist in a vacuum? even if the "self" is fractured into reader/writer/interpretor/ect.]

now, what's this business about monologic that you are fitting into the tapestry?

woo-woo! i haven't been this excited/engaged in over a year!

SQMojo

 
At 2:05 PM, Blogger Tee said...

sq:
not being an expert on wiki, i can only point you in this direction... but, i think it's all about community, and community pressure (and some editorial committee power, too).

here is a small quote from tikiwiki:
= = =
"Since everyone can destroy a web page, where is the challenge hackers are looking for? The beauty of Wiki is the implicit concensus." What remains on a web page is the most pertinent information. It's also what is confirmed by visitors.

Furthermore, if an idiot or a spamming bot does damage to one or multiple pages, the next visitor can erase those changes by using the change historic. This is one of the main reason why Wiki works. Wiki is an organic tool that burns with freedom and chaos."

- enjoying you

 
At 2:16 PM, Blogger Tee said...

oh, and without stepping totally into the fray, i would just ask that you two just settle on the semantics, and once agreed upon, the sparring jargon will become completely clear.

last nite i went to open mic, and it was clear that monologic meant "rant". and dialogic meant "audience-participation".

and that's all i have to say about that... *snicker*

 
At 2:36 PM, Blogger SquirrleyMojo said...

On second thought:
My questions are all circular drudgery. :-(
Nevermind.
Now I'm depressed again.

Instead, do you ever get to talk about "pleasure"? Bakhtin's good for that, isn't he?

Sigh.
Double sigh.

Tee:
does open mic do connotation? or redefinition? If so, I'll have to put my squirrel on and step up.

 
At 3:04 PM, Blogger Tee said...

connotation & redefinition - are these laymans terms? or are they specific jargon? cuz i think it might be fun to spin connotations in a freeform diarrhetic-thought stream maybe...

and redefinition, as in clinton-esque "if by oral-sex you mean... blah" - that might be fun, too.

be brave, step up, have fun.

 
At 5:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Intention, yes. This could be a topic all its own, so let me put it as a question:

If what you intend to say when you write a blog post will never matter to the people who write it, because they are just projecting themselves on to your text with no regard for you as the author, why are you writing? What you intend to say doesn't matter, so you're not writing to communicate. So what's the point?

Yes, I know figuring out intention is problematic, but I'm not abandoningn it just because reader response theory is trying to erase the writer.

I wouldn't use perform; it's not a metaphor that has ever worked for me with written texts. Why do you think perform is more precise than saying *is*? I don't get it.

Tee's definition of monologic/dialogic is pretty close to what I'm thinking.

In a monologic lyric poem, the narrator is just naval-gazing and spouting off about his or her experience with no expectation that an audience exists or even cares about what s/he is saying. A rant. This is creation in a vacuum-- "I hate webcams. [full stop]"

In a dialogic lyric poem, the narrator is conflicted and is looking for the audience to help sort things out--this is what Batstone means by intends--the poem makes it clear that the audience matters. "I hate webcams... don't you? Oh, but what if you were a soldier and talking to your family at home... do you think that makes them ok?"

So monologic = single voice in the poem with no audience acknowledgement and dialogic = multiple voices in the poem and audience acknowledgement. At least that's how I would define them.

[My paper is going to be 100% better as a result of this conversation... seriously, though, why is performace a better option there?]

And no, no pleasure on this paper. It's all communication and meaning. No carnivale, either.

 
At 5:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

And I should preview things...

If what you say in a blog will never matter to the ones who READ it, not write it...

 
At 6:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why are you writing with such absolutes (ie. never, always)?

I want to get back to performance in a sec--

right now it's just good to hear I am good for *something*; the struddles and brownies I made for tonight's BBQ are burnt and undercooked, respectfully. Sigh.

I will be back . . .

SQ

 
At 6:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

was that me???!!

SQMojo

 
At 8:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I didn't think there was a lot of negotiation in the checkmate/dark path statement--I thought you had already established that you thought 'intention' was useless/evil/the spawn of Satan to be excommunicated from all critical discussion--hence 'never'.

 
At 10:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Geez! I was laughing--are you laughing??

I need sleep. Guess what? I saw horse tonight & a couple are for sale . . . probably crappy horses (they looked pretty/healthy--but what do I know?)more later.

xoxo
Mojo

 
At 11:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I wondered if you were being sarcastic, but I wasn't sure.

In my defense, I'm writing 8,000 words in three days. No, 6,000 in two days.

My sense of humor disappeared around the first paragraph.

I expect to find it again in July.

 
At 7:40 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

No need of defense--geez! You lapped me at "monologic"! Ha! But, I think this last bit speaks to how relevant response theory & intention can be--especially in terms of tone. Don't you think? And now, with immediate communications, tone is very important in terms of human connections and networking . . .

I [heart] you!! Squeeze!
You are the only one who can make me think right now and distract me from my impending domestic DOOOOOM!

SQMojo

 
At 9:58 PM, Blogger swamp4me said...

*timidly raises hand*

'Uh, Professor, may I be excused? My brain is full.'

*runs outside to play*

 
At 12:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Will that work for me?

*raises hand too*

Uh, advisor? My brain is full... can I skip my thesis?

*runs outside and shrivels up in the sunlight, which body has not seen in eight months*

crap.

 

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